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Offline unhappy

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Re: Letting
« Reply #30 on: July 24, 2012 »
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  • Well hasnt that woke a few people up firstly stevejclark have you informed
    the relevant authorties & paid your correct dues because in Tenerife if you purchase a property they automatically deam that you are going to let it even if it is illeagal.

    raison d'etre I wonder what it tastes like

    If someone thinks this is enterainment think about the people who have always yearned of owning a place in the sun & have sunk their savings into a dream & who have been mislead by estate agents & lawyers and now find they could loose their dream. Taking them to court is a joke.

    Yes people have been fined some twice and people have paid because if you have not engaged a lawyer to contest the fine they will put it as a charge against your property + accrued interest of I belive 6%.

    If you think I am aggressive fine, but I think what the Govt are doing is far worse they have taken peoples money from 1995 when this law came in to 2010 when they then decided to act & fine people.

    Everybody not just the Investors should be tackling the powers that be that are carrying out these actions not just in LG but in the whole of Tenerife if you do not want to see it turn back into a bannana plantation.

    And for those who are interested I have owned here for 12 years I paid cash for my property I do not need to rent financially

    stevejclark

    Re: Letting
    « Reply #31 on: July 24, 2012 »
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  • Yes, Unhappy, we have paid our dues. We always think it a little odd that in our annual financial statement we  are charged 'Income Tax', although we do not earn any income from our apartment or anything else. It seems that all property owners are subjected to this tax, just for the pleasure owning property! :(

    Offline Mr Max

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    Re: Letting
    « Reply #32 on: July 24, 2012 »
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  • I am neither supporting or condoning what is happening.

    As it happens when I moved here some years ago I was given the "great letting potential" speech, but was sensible enough to do some homework for myself rather than listening to an agent desperate for a sale.

    The real issue though is the fact that the Canaries have been granted special status within the EU.  The law has been challenged and whilst modified slightly, but agreed by the EU that the Canaries laws are perfectly legal and therefore a challenge to the European Courts is unlikelt to succeed.  By the same status, Canarian employers are allowed by EU law to positively discriminate against non Canarians when it comes to work.

    Bottom line is that this is their country.  We may think their laws are wrong, but they have every right to make whatever laws they want to and not to give a fig about how the rest of the world thinks.

    This type of restriction on private letting is not exclusive to the Canaries, you will find similar laws in other countries, including in the UK.

    As to the results of what might happen if an insurance clain such as described earlier, I would hate to imagine.  We all know how insurance companies have huge legal departments dedicated to worming their way out of claimsand any excuse to avoid paying out.  The scenario described earlier doesn't bear thinking about.

    In my opinion, and I stress it is my opinion only, I believe a lot of "agents" have a lot of questions to answer for mis-selling, or misleading clients - if you have become caught up in this, then it is unfortunate, but don't look toward the Government for any help, answers or alterations in the law - it ain't gonna happen.....

    Those who think LG is dying - it has been for years, but, there are still plenty of places where you can rent a legal apartment and enjoy the area....


    Offline Beanie

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    Re: Letting
    « Reply #33 on: July 24, 2012 »
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  • Yes, the law was made some years ago but the point is, even if you were told about this law, which many were not, you were told not to worry as 'everyone rents out' and they don't actually enforce the law.  What has annoyed those fined particularly is there was no warning given - one minute the law was not being applied and then all of a sudden it was and for many people, receiving a letter about the fine was the first they knew about this law.  The association formed was Alotca and at the moment they are not planning to do the petition as there is some amendment being planned to the law - unfortunately, it will probably make matters worse rather than better however.  For further details look at www.janetanscombe.com and see the various discussion threads - it makes very interesting reading!

    The only reason these private let apartments are 'illegal' is because the Canaries government have declared them so.  Owners are ordinary people, some retired like myself, who bought properties for their own use in retirement and also were encouraged to rent them out by estate agents to generate an income stream - helpful for paying the community fees for one thing.  Do owners pay tax?  Well, I for one tried to do it all legally and opened a company, registered in Tenerife and have always paid taxes from the start - as someone so rightly said, the tax authorities and tourism authorities do not compare notes!  The fact that we are illegal though, I'm sure will invalidate any insurance claim - but that is only because the Canaries Government declared us as illegal in the first place - it's a vicious circle! 

    The Canaries are one of the only places in the world that have made private letting illegal.  You can go out tomorrow and buy a cottage in Cornwall or a gite in France and will not be hounded out as illegal if you have the audacity to let it out!  The Canaries Government is cutting it's own nose off to spite it's face but don't seem to care the effect this is having/will have even more in the future to local businesses. 


    Offline janey

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    Re: Letting
    « Reply #34 on: July 25, 2012 »
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  • well said tlc.  in a nutshell.

    and, with regard to insurance.  if an owner doesnt have insurance on their property perhaps they should??? reputable insurance includes public liability of millions to cover any 'accidents in or around the home'. this covers the window cleaner who may fall off his ladder whilst  cleaning your patio window, along to the guy pushing a takeaway leaflet through your front door who trips over the step and knocks himself out.

    please dont confuse the insurance issue with lettings, to try and stir up more fear/trouble etc.  i sometimes wonder exactly what some people want los gigantes to end up like???? one AI hotel is not going to keep the town going.

    Offline Mr Max

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    Re: Letting
    « Reply #35 on: July 25, 2012 »
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  • As before, there are always 2 sides to an argument, and there is a good degree of sympathy for anyone caught up in the situation.

    For clarity though, the law did not remain dormant, it has been used since it was brought in in 1995, although, yes, it is being enforced now with avengance.

    Interesting point of note is that tourist numbers to the islands continue to grow - best June ever apparently, and of course the official numbers do not include the below the radar "illegal" numbers either.  Whether this is because tourists love the island so much they are now using legal (and therefore accountable) accomodation - who knows.

    Buying property abroad can be a risky business and there are horror stories world-wide.  With respect though, anyone who bought to let on a residential complex in the past 16 years or so, in the knowledge of the law but decided to "risk it" only really have themselves to blame.

    The point of warnings is interesting too.  When, in the UK for example, did you ever get a warning drop through your door having been snapped doing 100mph on the M25 and not to do it again or you will be fined?

    Harsh though it may seem, the law has always been there, and as in the speeding analagy, just because the authorities have installed more cameras and despite the bloke in the pub telling you not to worry because there is never any film in the cameras, there is no logic in the argument that you should have been warned first.

    Harsh perhaps

    Janey - there is no suggestion that owners do not have insurance policies, but as is the case world wide they are often invalidated by the policy holders own activities if they are not included.  Your car insurance is invalid if your car does not have an ITV/MOT - your passengers are not covered if you have an accident doing an illegal airport run, apartment insurance is invalid if you are performing an illegal activity in your property, public liability insurance often does not cover "dangerous" sports, and if the "accident" occured in the communal area on a residential complex you can bet your life it will be invalid if a paying guest were to fall foul.
    « Last Edit: July 25, 2012 by Mr Max »

    Offline Chiquita

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    Re: Letting
    « Reply #36 on: July 25, 2012 »
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  • Perhaps those who do rent their second / holiday homes should check their insurance policies.

    Short-term rental in and of itself, is a violation of the underwriting guidelines for all ‘standard’ homeowner’s insurance policies.  From an insurance perspective, this is considered to be the same type of exposure or risk as faced by a hotel due to the continual turnover of tenants.  This alone takes these properties out of the realm ‘personal insurance’ and places them into the ‘commercial’ insurance market. The fact that the home may also be occupied by the owner is irrelevant.... of course the choice is yours.

    Offline Davymar

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    Re: Letting
    « Reply #37 on: July 25, 2012 »
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    The Canaries are one of the only places in the world that have made private letting illegal.  You can go out tomorrow and buy a cottage in Cornwall or a gite in France and will not be hounded out as illegal if you have the audacity to let it out!  The Canaries Government is cutting it's own nose off to spite it's face but
    I am very sorry to have to correct you on this, you are completely wrong!
    I am involved in Letting to tourists,(not in the Canary islands) over three months there are few problems, short term is another ballgame altogether, (whatever eu country) there are various factors that you must adhere to ie, access, fire safety,personal safety, full liability insurance the list is endless if you do it legaly.
    There is also another consideration, anyone who bought on a residential complex bought because they wished to live part of the year, or retire, and were assured of peace and quiet during their stay. ie, no pissed up tourists at all hours destroying their dreams. unfortunately the illegal let brigade, who pocketed the undeclared income have spoiled it for the few honest people.
    As is the norm, some of the real estate sellers are in colusion with local lawyers, a lot of back pocket cash has been received, some buyers have been duped, misslead, conned read what you like into thinking they couls let out to tourists, the fact is this, with various countries in reccession, laws are being enforced, like it or not, they want their pound of flesh.
    As it has always been, buyer beware!
    Personaly, as a winter visitor to Tenerife (back again in Feb) I do feel sympathy towards the Los Gigantes area, the sooner this mess is cleared up, the better the future of the local inhabitants. We have seen a steady decline over the years, in fact the evenings have been like a ghost town (last year)
    I do wish Los Gigantes well

    Offline janey

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    Re: Letting
    « Reply #38 on: July 26, 2012 »
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  • spain is on its knees.     and none of this is helping, not the real situation, not the gossip, not people shouting out 'their views' loudly.

    i feel desperately sorry for people who invested in the island, were told they could let and now this.   they cant even sell their propertys and many, many people  will gladly take a hit on the price.  that affects the people who dont let out in a terrible way, pension pots suddenly halved.....

    even the banks told people they could let when they took out mortgages.  i quote "that old law - it will be obselete soon", and "yes - public liability is included in our insurance that we will now sell you with a limit up to blah blah".

    oh yes, spain is on its knees.  and imploding.




    Offline Beanie

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    Re: Letting
    « Reply #39 on: July 26, 2012 »
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  • I was also in Los Gigantes in February and was shocked to see how quiet it was.  Walking home at 10-30 at night after a meal, we hardly saw another soul - it was deathly and depressing - so unlike it was years ago.  This is the point though - hardly any owners actually live there and are only in Los Gigantes for say 2 or 3 months a year.  What happens during the other 9 to 10 months - empty apartments of course.  Most owners tend to be in the senior age group, so are not going out for meals every night or using the local entertainment and they are just as likely to sit in watching the TV every night.  People renting tend to eat out every night, drink in the bars, enjoy the entertainment etc.

    Take a look at the well known internet sites and you will see there are still loads of people advertising apartments in Los Gigantes - 86 on Holiday Rentals, 60 plus on Owners Direct and Holiday Lettings.  For one thing, do these people realise the huge risk they are taking?!  More importantly though, these people all tend to have good bookings and are relatively well booked up into the future.  Once they are 'found out' one presumes they will stop renting so the big effect is yet to come - also people who only recently stopped advertising, still have full books for the foreseeable future, well probably until next Easter!  Time will tell!

    Finally, I somewhat resent the implication that renters are simply lining our own pockets.  We are providing people with what they want, privately owned, individual, clean, nicely decorated homes from home.  The income in my own case, is all paid into Tenerife - we even pay taxes! - but in many cases people declare it in the UK and some I guess don't declare it at all.  Even if income is not declared, every owner is constantly upgrading and renewing their apartments, buying goods and services and most of all, employing people - who pay taxes too.  Our rentees come and spend more money, at the supermarkets, restaurants, bars, boat trips, car rentals - who all pay their taxes too.  All in all, we are adding a whole lot of value into the local economy which will only be missed when it's not there any more. 


    Offline dablar

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    Re: Letting
    « Reply #40 on: July 26, 2012 »
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  • Los Gigantes started to get quiet with the arrival of satellite TV bringing English language tv to Tenerife. People no longer had to out for their entertainment.

    Offline Edward Bear

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    Re: Letting
    « Reply #41 on: July 27, 2012 »
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  • w a l o c

    Offline Chiquita

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    Re: Letting
    « Reply #42 on: July 27, 2012 »
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  • Offline Falstaff

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    Re: Letting
    « Reply #43 on: July 28, 2012 »
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  • While walking through our village on a beautiful  Summer's day and remembering what we used to do during the Summer holidays when I was I child,  I asked my wife, “where are all the children?”  My comment was prompted by the deserted streets devoid of children playing out.

    When I was a child,  we spent all day playing outside from dawn 'til  dusk  engaging in sporting and other  activities, socially interacting with our friends. My wife (a teacher) replied, “they are all at home alone watching computer screens and daytime television.”  When I was a child  I had only  a dozen or so friends but I met up with them socially every day, whereas, young people today have hundreds (if not thousands) of  “friends” who they never meet face to face.

    So Dablar  is quite  right.  There is  a clear  correlation between our use of technology and our propensity to go out and interact socially, face to face with others.

    Back to root of this thread. 

    I am quite impressed by the quality of the arguments presented by the newer members of  the message board on the subject of unauthorised lettings this time around.  The  right wing swallows' comments previously put forward that all unauthorised letters are tax fraudsters and operating without valid occupier's liability insurance,  are clearly without evidence and patently erroneous- as they always were. 

    As previously stated,  much of  Los Gigantes'  renting  need  is satisfied by  private unauthorised letting. The authorised sector is clearly too small to meet  the level of demand.  It would also appear that as far as Los Gigantes is concerned,  private apartment renting  is what many people prefer. 
    But if the Canarian Government  is saying to those customers that  they  can't have what they want,  then in all probability, those customers will not transfer to the authorised sector  because it's not what those customers want and the authorised sector  simply can't deliver the number of beds that would be needed.  So  people will inevitably take their euros elsewhere.  The same technology which  enables  children to so easily interact  with the world via a computer screen will enable their parents to easily find  the type of holiday they want elsewhere if they are not to be found in Los Gigantes. 

    You can't buck the market because the customer is king.

    Offline Mary

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    Re: Letting
    « Reply #44 on: July 28, 2012 »
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  • What I simply can't understand is why there is no way that people wanting to let out their apartments, can't apply for a license to do so.
    Surely this is something that could be sorted out, even if it means an annual check to make sure everything is safe for holiday makers, and all paperwork in order.
    I accept that it would increase the cost of renting, but surely it would be a way forward, or am I missing something here, and would apartment owners not be interested if instead of cash in hand they had to declare their income?

    Offline janey

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    Re: Letting
    « Reply #45 on: July 28, 2012 »
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  • What I simply can't understand is why there is no way that people wanting to let out their apartments, can't apply for a license to do so.
    Surely this is something that could be sorted out, even if it means an annual check to make sure everything is safe for holiday makers, and all paperwork in order.
    I accept that it would increase the cost of renting, but surely it would be a way forward, or am I missing something here, and would apartment owners not be interested if instead of cash in hand they had to declare their income?

    couldnt agree more mary. BUT the hotels dont want this. they want to control every facet of tourism from beds, bars, restaurants, evening entertainment, excursions, transfers, car hire, etc.  and they have lots of power in high places within the canarian government/tourist police.   the last thing the hotelier wants is for its punters to stay in an apartment and to make their own choices where they spend their money!

    Offline Mr Max

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    Re: Letting
    « Reply #46 on: July 28, 2012 »
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  • It's not just only the pressure from the hotel groups though.

    Part of the law is attempting to ensure apartments are safe and that the complex has the level of facilities deemed to be necessary for the tourism offer, so that when visitors go home again their experience was a positive one.  True enough the quality of some privately owned apartments is superior to what is currently on offer via the legally operated complexes, but other safeguards such as permanent lifeguards on the pools, reception and key-holding facilities which together combines to provide some basic on-site security are most certainly not provided on residential complexes, and this is where the Government do have a very valid point.

    As someone pointed out earlier, the fact that there are two very distinct types of accomodation on the islands is an important one.  Residential is where people live, be it all year round or just part of the year.  They live in a community of owners, many of whom chose to do so for the relative peace and tranquility such a place provides.  On the other hand, a complex designed to accomodate short term guests, provide receptions and other services are, by their very nature, more expensive to operate and have to comply with stricter safety rules.

    If individual licensing of apartments were introduced the problem would be that on a normal residential complex the costs of implimenting the touristic requirements would need to be spread over the entire community of owners, something which the vast majority, by way of chosing to live on a residential complex, did not want in the first place.

    It is not so simple.  The fact that LG itself is described as having become a ghost town in the past couple of years has nothing to do with the letting laws, they have been in existance now for 16 years.  LG is no longer a tourist destination (if it ever really was).  LG to Playa Arena has had precious little investment in the past 15 years - repairs to the pavements were started, then abandoned.  The eyesore by Colonial Park is still there, the car-park remains closed, and the overall "attractiveness" of the area has stood still in comparison to areas like Fanabe and even the vast majority of Las Americas where millions have been invested in the infra-structure.

    It's not all to do with the letting laws.

    Asturian

    Re: Letting
    « Reply #47 on: July 28, 2012 »
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  • We come out to Los Gigantes every August,for as long as i can rememember now.
    Our son learnt to swim here,my dads ashes are here.And some of the menus in the local restaurants are the same as when we first came, by and large.
    We always used to eat out most nights,now we rarely eat out in Los Gigantes for the above reason.
    Although i have to say i am looking forward to trying the tapas bar and maybe El Rincon also.
    Mostly now we have a walk around and a drink and people watch.
    Even the local supermarkets we rarely use except for simons and the country garden,because the prices are ripoffs,we use Mercadona and Transito.
    We still love it out there but some of the places need to up their game.
    Roll on August.

    Offline janey

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    Re: Letting
    « Reply #48 on: July 29, 2012 »
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  • i actually think a lot of people are using this discussion line as a back stab for our lovely area.

    it is not as depressed as some are making out.

    it is one of the nicest areas in tenerife. we have in our midst the restaurant owned by the 2nd best chef in the whole of spain, not to mention the fab san remo, la pergola, casa pepe and lots of others.

    we are in an area of natural beauty.   our scenery and backdrops are stunning.

    the area to me is being upgraded all the time. puerto santiago front is really nice.

    tipsy terrace has great tennis courts and the crazy golf has been rebuilt.

    the boating trips, and marina are all of a good standard.

    please, dont put the area down, it still has loads to offer and still gets 90% repeat business from tourists - yes, tourists!

    Offline Edward Bear

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    Re: Letting
    « Reply #49 on: July 29, 2012 »
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  • Well said Janey. You say it as it is girl.

    Offline Beanie

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    Re: Letting
    « Reply #50 on: July 29, 2012 »
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  • In reply to Mary, a licence to rent would be the ideal solution and most owners would willingly pay an annual fee, say four or five hundred Euros, to obtain a licence and would be happy to accept annual check ups etc.  This is a system which is operating now in Portugal, where they also brought in illegal letting laws some years ago but soon realised the effect it was having on their economy and this was brought in as a compromise.

    Mr Max however seems to be touting the official line which is that tourists need all the trappings that go with staying in a hotel - like a reception, life guards on duty, etc, etc.  Why does a client of mine need a 24 hour reception!  I send them the keys, they either drive themselves or get a taxi from the airport, let themselves into the apartment and there are contact details for the person who looks after the apartment for me, who they can contact at any time - they rarely do but it does happen on the odd occasion - and that's the way they like it (and I'm sure when they do have a problem they get far more individual attention than they would get from a person on duty at reception).  Also, why a life guard on duty at all times?!  This is just another way the hotels are trying to make it difficult for individual apartment renters.  I well remember the fiasco this caused a few years ago when Tourismo (the department responsible for tourism on the island) declared that all complexes should have a life guard on duty at the swimming pool, which was impossible for smaller communities.  They relented for a while and said as long as it was owners in the pool a life guard was not necessary.  I still have a copy of our community minutes from that time, when, to comply with the law, we were told we could swim in the pool as owners, but our guests, meaning people staying with us, could not use the pool as it would void the insurance cover - talk about making life difficult!  Eventually there was a complete turn around (when they saw sense!) and residential communities were let off as long as they displayed a notice declaring that a life guard was not on duty.  Doesn't all this just show how these laws are not thought through properly in the first place and why, now, is it that tourists need life guards but owners and their families and guests do not!!

    But I do agree with you Janey that lots of efforts have been made to upgrade the area in recent years, including the new crazy paved pavements throughout the area, the smart mirador as you drive into the village, the metal railings near Colonial Park, all add to the area, as do the improvements made to the Marina which was looking quite scruffy until recently.  Let's just hope there will be tourists able to come to the area to enjoy it because if Tourismo have their way I'm afraid the tourists will go elsewhere!

    Offline Mr Max

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    Re: Letting
    « Reply #51 on: July 29, 2012 »
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  • In reply to Mary, a licence to rent would be the ideal solution and most owners would willingly pay an annual fee, say four or five hundred Euros, to obtain a licence and would be happy to accept annual check ups etc.  This is a system which is operating now in Portugal, where they also brought in illegal letting laws some years ago but soon realised the effect it was having on their economy and this was brought in as a compromise.

    Mr Max however seems to be touting the official line which is that tourists need all the trappings that go with staying in a hotel - like a reception, life guards on duty, etc, etc.  Why does a client of mine need a 24 hour reception!  I send them the keys, they either drive themselves or get a taxi from the airport, let themselves into the apartment and there are contact details for the person who looks after the apartment for me, who they can contact at any time - they rarely do but it does happen on the odd occasion - and that's the way they like it (and I'm sure when they do have a problem they get far more individual attention than they would get from a person on duty at reception).  Also, why a life guard on duty at all times?!  This is just another way the hotels are trying to make it difficult for individual apartment renters.  I well remember the fiasco this caused a few years ago when Tourismo (the department responsible for tourism on the island) declared that all complexes should have a life guard on duty at the swimming pool, which was impossible for smaller communities.  They relented for a while and said as long as it was owners in the pool a life guard was not necessary.  I still have a copy of our community minutes from that time, when, to comply with the law, we were told we could swim in the pool as owners, but our guests, meaning people staying with us, could not use the pool as it would void the insurance cover - talk about making life difficult!  Eventually there was a complete turn around (when they saw sense!) and residential communities were let off as long as they displayed a notice declaring that a life guard was not on duty.  Doesn't all this just show how these laws are not thought through properly in the first place and why, now, is it that tourists need life guards but owners and their families and guests do not!!

    But I do agree with you Janey that lots of efforts have been made to upgrade the area in recent years, including the new crazy paved pavements throughout the area, the smart mirador as you drive into the village, the metal railings near Colonial Park, all add to the area, as do the improvements made to the Marina which was looking quite scruffy until recently.  Let's just hope there will be tourists able to come to the area to enjoy it because if Tourismo have their way I'm afraid the tourists will go elsewhere!

    I'm not necessarily advocating the official line, but there are two sides to every story, and some of your comments need clarification.

    Are you suggesting the law brought in by Portugal is/was illegal?

    The issue and laws surrounding pools was primarily directed at youngsters.  When on holiday, little 'uns run around enjoying themselves, screaming, splashing and having fun with friends - and that's the whole point.  Parents cannot (or sadly do not) watch their children like Hawkes around the clock, and following a number of deaths and drownings in unsupervised pools, the laws were tightened up.  Yes private residential complexes were not prepared or able to cover the costs of permanent guards on pools.  However, residential complexes were not just required to put a sign up as you state, they were and are required to have pools fenced off with keyholder access only for owners and are regularly inspected. 

    Touristic complex pools however are required to be supervised for just the reasons above and rightly so.

    All that said, don't overlook the fundamentals.  Residential is where people live, often as their primary home and often a deliberate choice to be away from holiday makers.  At the same time, touristic complexes, often nearby, provide the services deemed necessary for the touristic offer by those in charge. 

    You ask why should you need to provide your "clients" with the extra facilities.  That's easy to answer - it is because they are required by the 1995 law. 

    Many who live on a residential complex would argue with you as to why they should they put up with your constant stream of clients invading their communal areas when you could and should be operating your buy to let holiday business legally, within the law, on a complex with all the necessary facilities.

    The answer of course is that there is less money to be made. 


    Offline Beanie

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    Re: Letting
    « Reply #52 on: July 29, 2012 »
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  • No, I'm not suggesting the laws brought in by Portugal were illegal - I was referring to the law regarding illegal letting which they brought in and then changed to allow people to become licenced.

    I accept your comments about the pools - yes, they were required to be fenced off etc as well - but still are we saying that tourists are not to be trusted to look after their kids around pools whereas I, my family or my private guests are?  I'm sorry, but these laws have been made with reference to the hotels association who are calling the shots to make it impossible for everyone else to comply with.

    With regard to the residential status and people actually living there - yes, of course, I sympathise with people if they have a group of rowdy tourists staying above, below or  next door to them.  We've all had it, but isn't that one of the problems of 'communal' living in any block of flats whether in the UK or Tenerife.  The problem is that far, far too many complexes have been classed as residential in the first place.  Residential in my book means that someone lives there - if you look at the number of apartments in Los Gigantes and hazzard a guess at how many are actually lived in - really lived in for 52 weeks of the year - I would be surprised if the percentage was a high as 5%.  How can these places really be called residential when they are all empty for the majority of the time - there are probably enough apartments in Los Gigantes to house the whole population of Tenerife!  If the businesses relied on real, full time residents - well, there would hardly be any businesses and equally, neither would there be much more need if the village relied solely on the other owners coming out for a month or so a year.  This is the scenario we are trying to warn you about and it will happen.

    At the end of the day Mr Max, I think a lot of people like me are considering selling their apartments, if they can (and that won't do much for the property values either).

    Offline Beanie

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    Re: Letting
    « Reply #53 on: July 29, 2012 »
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  • http://content.yudu.com/Library/A1xnst/APlaceintheSunAugust/resources/index.htm?...

    For those who are interested, this link, if it works, is the article on illegal letting in August's Place in the Sun magazine.

    Offline Beanie

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    Re: Letting
    « Reply #54 on: July 29, 2012 »
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  • Sorry - see pages 40 to 43!

    knightrider

    Re: Letting
    « Reply #55 on: July 30, 2012 »
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  • Apart from reading pages 41 to 43, on page 29, there is an advert for an estate agency, whose name reminds me of a local builders firm called Bodjit, Scarper & Wrun.

    But like the post regarding the arrival of English satellite T.V, perhaps i should have posted this
    in the 'Lets all have a laugh' section.



    Offline Mr Max

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    Re: Letting
    « Reply #56 on: July 30, 2012 »
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  • No, I'm not suggesting the laws brought in by Portugal were illegal - I was referring to the law regarding illegal letting which they brought in and then changed to allow people to become licenced.

    I accept your comments about the pools - yes, they were required to be fenced off etc as well - but still are we saying that tourists are not to be trusted to look after their kids around pools whereas I, my family or my private guests are?  I'm sorry, but these laws have been made with reference to the hotels association who are calling the shots to make it impossible for everyone else to comply with.

    With regard to the residential status and people actually living there - yes, of course, I sympathise with people if they have a group of rowdy tourists staying above, below or  next door to them.  We've all had it, but isn't that one of the problems of 'communal' living in any block of flats whether in the UK or Tenerife.  The problem is that far, far too many complexes have been classed as residential in the first place.  Residential in my book means that someone lives there - if you look at the number of apartments in Los Gigantes and hazzard a guess at how many are actually lived in - really lived in for 52 weeks of the year - I would be surprised if the percentage was a high as 5%.  How can these places really be called residential when they are all empty for the majority of the time - there are probably enough apartments in Los Gigantes to house the whole population of Tenerife!  If the businesses relied on real, full time residents - well, there would hardly be any businesses and equally, neither would there be much more need if the village relied solely on the other owners coming out for a month or so a year.  This is the scenario we are trying to warn you about and it will happen.

    At the end of the day Mr Max, I think a lot of people like me are considering selling their apartments, if they can (and that won't do much for the property values either).

    With respect, whilst the Canarian Government clearly have been and still are in the pockets of the hotel operators and vice versa I don't believe you can pin the swimming pool regulations on Tourismo.  They are common sense rules and not draconian.  If you went to your municipal pool in the UK you would expect there to be life-guards and first-aid provided and I'm sure would be among the first to seek legal recompense if you or a member of your family suffered an accident.

    You make a fair point too about the occupation of residential apartments insofar as a lot of them are owned by "swallows" who do not necessarily live there all year, but any suggestion that such an apartment should be effectively forcibly let to holiday makers whilst the owner is not in residence is verging on a communist state.  So what if the owner is not always there, they still pay their rates and community fees and therefore contribute to the local economy and any suggestion that a residential block should be filled with short term lettings just because the owners use it as a second home is no more right than the very laws you have an issue with.

    Business works on a supply and demand basis.  Just because someone decides to open a bar or restaurant does not necessarily mean the area should provide his establishment with potential clients. There are far too many per capita here already, the good ones who offer good service and prices thrive and those who don't, erm - don't.

    I also agree that the recent enforcement of the 1995 laws will be damaging to property prices since many will decide to sell, but property values have risen to levels way beyond being sustainable in any event - it's a risk you take if you dabble in investments of any kind.

    We obviously won't agree on some issues, but at least we are allowed to do that - for the moment!!

    It has been said before, but a lot of the blame for the present situation does not rest with the Canarian laws or Tourismo, but on the shoulders of those who mis-represented the apartments they have sold in the past 16 years. 

    Offline unhappy

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    Re: Letting
    « Reply #57 on: July 30, 2012 »
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  • I have not posted for a few days because I wanted to see the reactions.

    Mr Max can I explain how crazy this law is my complex which has just over 60  apts 53% timeshare 47% outright owners. Not one single person lives at this complex, the only people like my self come for 1, 2 or 3 months at a time unlike the timeshare people who come mostly every week!!

    Our complex conforms to all the legal cirtera, A gated resort, fully Bi-lingal staffed reception including security . fully upgraded water system & fire requirements ( which most hotels do not have) & this complex was only built 12 years ago BUT WE ARE CLASSED AS ILLEGAL if the owners let and many of them have been fined.

    This complex you would class as front line "touristic" with views to the sea & cliffs & with all the requirements for holidaymakers yet it is madness that owners who want to let are deemed as breaking the law

    Offline Beanie

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    Re: Letting
    « Reply #58 on: July 31, 2012 »
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  • Mr Max - I was certainly not suggesting that residential owners should be forced into renting their places - only that those wishing to should be allowed to - freedom of choice is what I am advocating.  I'm not pretending to know all the answers but as we can see from Unhappy's post, it is causing considerable hardship and aggravation to people with nonsensical situations developing. 

    I only entered this discussion to warn people who are renting that they are taking a big risk and also, hopefully, to make people aware locally how the situation will develop in the longer term and how badly it will affect local businesses.  I always get the feeling there is a view that so called 'illegal letters' are some sort of local mafia, ripping off tourists, not paying taxes and pocketing the money, to the detriment of the local community but nothing could be further from the truth!  We are just normal people, who bought a dream, yes, Mr Max, probably mis-sold as well by agents not telling us the whole truth, and are now being penalised very heavily for it, totally out of proportion with reality - 18500 Euros is an awful lot of money.  Buying a property abroad is becoming more and more popular and whole TV series and magazines have grown up to support the idea and one of the first questions they ask is rental potential.  Renting is something people do freely in most other parts of the world - OK there are always exceptions - but mainly, renting out to help pay a mortgage or even as an investment is hardly an unusual thing to do. 

    As everyone else, I love Los Gigantes and have done for 20 years - I simply don't want to see it suffer any more.

    Caroline

    Re: Letting
    « Reply #59 on: August 02, 2012 »
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  • Mr Max - I was certainly not suggesting that residential owners should be forced into renting their places - only that those wishing to should be allowed to - freedom of choice is what I am advocating.  I'm not pretending to know all the answers but as we can see from Unhappy's post, it is causing considerable hardship and aggravation to people with nonsensical situations developing. 

    I only entered this discussion to warn people who are renting that they are taking a big risk and also, hopefully, to make people aware locally how the situation will develop in the longer term and how badly it will affect local businesses.  I always get the feeling there is a view that so called 'illegal letters' are some sort of local mafia, ripping off tourists, not paying taxes and pocketing the money, to the detriment of the local community but nothing could be further from the truth!  We are just normal people, who bought a dream, yes, Mr Max, probably mis-sold as well by agents not telling us the whole truth, and are now being penalised very heavily for it, totally out of proportion with reality - 18500 Euros is an awful lot of money.  Buying a property abroad is becoming more and more popular and whole TV series and magazines have grown up to support the idea and one of the first questions they ask is rental potential.  Renting is something people do freely in most other parts of the world - OK there are always exceptions - but mainly, renting out to help pay a mortgage or even as an investment is hardly an unusual thing to do. 

    As everyone else, I love Los Gigantes and have done for 20 years - I simply don't want to see it suffer any more.

    Hear, hear and Amen to everything you said.  Pity we who believe all this can't make a difference, but .....  I'm lucky as my uncle owns and I've been able to use his apartment whenever I want to.  But I know that he's suffered, financially, after being sold on the letting potential of his gorgeous apartment.  I have to add though, that in all the 26 years we've been visiting, we only had one night of noise when I had to shout to tell them to 'be quiet' (not as polite though) - and get this, they were Spanish!!!  Not Brits abroad - be careful not to stereotype, we're not all the same.